A Debate Edwards Has to Love

Interesting how races develop. After a thousand rhetorical skirmishes, the defining battle concerns who and how to best effect change. It's actually a good, substantive debate. As summed up by Atrios:

Obama: The system sucks, but I'm so awesome that it'll melt away before me.

Edwards: The system sucks, and we're gonna have to fight like hell to destroy it.

Clinton: The system sucks, and I know how to work within it more than anyone.

Atrios is probably too nasty to Obama--he's not quite that self-aggrandizing--and too kind to Clinton--she doesn't think the system sucks--but, in any case, it's a debate Edwards has to love. Who, in a democratic primary, wouldn't want to be the fighter, as opposed to the compromiser and the corporatist--uh, I mean, hard worker.

Well, everybody on this stage has an idea about how to get change. Some believe you get change by demanding it, some believe you get it by hoping for it. I believe you get it by working hard for change.

It wasn't supposed to be this way, with Edwards still in the thick of the race. Clinton and Obama had planned to out-spend and out-celebrity him into oblivion. The best paid plans.

Many people within the Clinton and Obama campaigns never expected Edwards' support in Iowa to remain this strong. The fact that it has is a testament to the time he has spent in the state and the level of connection that many in the Hawkeye State feel toward him and his message of "the people versus the powerful."

But it's clear now that Edwards will be a serious threat to the end. So Clinton and Obama have to try to tap into his support, which, by most accounts, is increasing.

The Obama camp, for its part, is trying a two-pronged, self-contradicting line of attack. On the one hand, they say JRE's strategy--fighting corporate power--is misguided.

If you put forward a plan that that overlooks insurance companies, it's really hard to understand how you are going to execute it without talking to them. And that's really what Sen. Edwards is saying. We're going to have private insurance companies in my plan but we're not going to talk to them because they are evil and they're bad.

On the other hand, they say Edwards didn't always fight corporate power:

Sen. Edwards, who is a good guy -- he's been talking a lot about, 'I am going to fight the lobbyists and the special interests in Washington.' Well the question you have to ask is: Were you fighting for'em when you were in the Senate. What did you do?

This line of criticism on Edwards has a problem larger even than its inherent contradiction. Obama's chief advisor testified to JRE's toughness on corporate special interests in 2004.

Washington is run by the special interests today ... John Edwards ran headlong into it when he led the fight for the patients bill of rights against the insurance industry in the Senate. He has never taken a dime from lobbyists or PACs. He said, let's ban lobbyist money, so you can't give people a bill to pass in the day and a check at night. And that's how we're going to start changing the culture in Washington.

JRE's reputation for toughness on corporate power was well-established when Obama was still a state senator.

[...I]n the Senate, Edwards was willing to stand up on a number of anti-corporate issues more so than most Democrats. It's the reason that not just Ralph Nader has kind words for him but also people like Ted Kennedy and remember, internally within the Kerry campaign, Ted Kennedy was advocating for Edwards. Because he saw Edwards as a gutsy guy who is willing to take on some bigger issues and to do some rough stuff with it.

And it's worth pointing out, because Edwards himself wisely does, that the kind of politics he's preaching derives directly from his previous profession. This should be easy to understand.  

It is a failure of political reporting that those legal cases are rarely evaluated as anything but potential attack ads. The stories, people, and corporations Edwards came into contact with amounted to a searing, visceral course in old-style populism.

Think of it this way: Hillary Clinton's caution and political savvy are obvious products of an adult life spent entirely in politics, the last 15 years or so on the national stage. Barack Obama's broad appeal and talent for consensus building are not unexpected traits in a former community organizer. So what does spending decades confronting the grievous, heartbreaking damage done to individuals and families by powerful, profit-driven corporations do to a man?

"Every single day," says Edwards' wife, Elizabeth, "what he saw were good people, in great need, who were being mistreated by big corporations -- corporations that knew that they had done wrong, and often insurance companies that were taking a calculated risk going to trial. ... If you took that person, a person who chose that as his life, you would end up with the politics that he's talking about today.

.

So Edwards is, in short, mighty comfy in this debate, and it shows. In fact, this is the very debate he's long wanted, and it dates back to what I believe to be the turning point of his campaign--the moment he found the perfect way to articulate the fundamental difference between him and his rivals.



Display:


Re: A Debate Edwards Has to Love (2.00 / 2)

They're definitely fighting on Edwards' turf now.  Just as he did in policy terms, Edwards is setting the parameters of the debate, with opponents giving confused responses.

Right on target as usual.


by MassEyesandEars on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 11:37:56 AM EST

Re: A Debate Edwards Has to Love (2.00 / 1)

Yup, and as I say toward the end, the Edwards camp--which has taken a fair amount of heat--deserves credit for seeing this as the battle they wanted.


by david mizner on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 11:42:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Debate Edwards Has to Love (2.00 / 1)

Right, it is clear people want 'change,' but Edwards is the one who's gone out and defined the change he wants the most clearly and directly.   Obama and Clinton have gotten caught in a more fuzzy debate.


by MassEyesandEars on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 12:33:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Debate Edwards Has to Love (none / 0)

Bill Clinton:  George HW Bush will help Pres. Hillary.
Oh - I'm certain to vote for Hillary NOW! ;>

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/200 7/12/17/bill-clinton-george-hw-bush-will -help-president-hillary-2/


Hillary/Obama08
by annefrank on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 02:01:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Debate Edwards Has to Love (2.00 / 1)

Hi David - right on as usual. This has always been a real campaign, not a Public Relations response to polls and focus group think. John Edwards looks so happy now (not the changed from "angry" campaigner that only pundits see) - because he he really happy. I know I am. The campaign strategy is working according to his plan that you can easily see without the MSM blinders. John has walked into the courtroom and is now addressing the jury after a year's preparation - and they get him. Hooray! [Republicans like him too. We've got to get Republican votes.]


by mrobinsong on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 12:58:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Debate Edwards Has to Love (none / 0)

Like when Edwards fought for the credit card companies and voted for the bankruptcy bill.


by nerdoff on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 11:59:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Debate Edwards Has to Love (none / 0)

Do you think I can't cherry pick plenty of awful corporate-friendly votes by O and C?


by david mizner on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 12:02:31 PM EST
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Re: A Debate Edwards Has to Love (none / 0)

Is it also cherry picking to point out he voted to authorize Bush's invasion of Iraq?


by nerdoff on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 12:35:51 PM EST
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Re: A Debate Edwards Has to Love (none / 0)

With his eye on the presidency (the first time), when it was politically popular...


by nerdoff on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 12:36:53 PM EST
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Re: A Debate Edwards Has to Love (none / 0)

Apparently it was politically popular for Obama and Hillary to continue funding Bush's crazy war??
Follow the money....follow the campaign money.

Neither had Edwards courage or guts to vote against war funding! but continued voting to fund the war and opposing timetables - for 3 years AFTER Edwards voted against funding.


Hillary/Obama08
by annefrank on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 02:05:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Debate Edwards Has to Love (none / 0)

Did I mention he voted for the patriot act, the creation of the department of homeland security, and has been afraid to support gay marriage?


by nerdoff on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 03:43:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Debate Edwards Has to Love (none / 0)

Or that his war voting record is virtually identical to Hillary--except for the dozens of votes he intentionally skipped when running for president?


by nerdoff on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 03:47:02 PM EST
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Re: A Debate Edwards Has to Love (none / 0)

I love it when people cite the 98-1 vote on the Patriot Act as evidence that someone is unacceptable.  What's next, the 90-9 vote on creating the Department of Homeland Security?  Oh wait, you used that one too.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 04:25:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Debate Edwards Has to Love (none / 0)

and his opposition to UHC until...hey...that'd be a politically popular position if I run in 2008! like magic, new convictions appear....


by CalDem on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 04:28:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Debate Edwards Has to Love (none / 0)

Well, I'm certainly not going to sit here and spend my time batting down the anti-Edwards talking points one by one.  If that's a good enough reason for you to oppose Edwards, good for you.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 04:33:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

no more like when Obama funded the war 69 times (none / 0)


by marketingman on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 12:27:16 PM EST
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Re: A Debate Edwards Has to Love (none / 0)

This is how you win - play offense. Get them to play on your turf. Pundits didn't go in for team sport or even debate, you can tell. they don't even recognize the game Edwards is playing. They don't recognize the happiness of playing your winning game ["not angry anymore"].  


by mrobinsong on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 01:04:02 PM EST
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Re: A Debate Edwards Has to Love (2.00 / 1)

Really, you think the criticism may be a little too nasty on Obama?  That's quite an admission.  The only one of these three who has done anything substantial in terms of moving the political system away from the undue power of special interests is Barack Obama.  Thanks to his legislation we now can look at every Government contract and see every sponsor of earmarks slipped into bills.  This is a huge thing and it is to the progressive blogoshpere's discredit that it has gotten so little attention.  USAspending.org appeared with barely a mention.  It shouldn't have to take Obama partisans to highlight what is good for all of us.  


by Piuma on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 11:38:39 AM EST

Re: A Debate Edwards Has to Love (none / 0)

Obama's done some worthwhile things on ethics, but when an electorate is demanding big bold change, goo-goo reforms are going to impress them all that much.


by david mizner on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 11:41:23 AM EST
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Re: A Debate Edwards Has to Love (2.00 / 1)

I am not sure why you think it's an 'admission' by David that he thinks Atrios is too harsh.  I actually think Atrios was right on target.


by MassEyesandEars on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 11:41:56 AM EST
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Re: A Debate Edwards Has to Love (2.00 / 1)

And admission that there is some substance despite the personality, doesn't mean it isn't the personality thats been fueling his campaign. Indeed, several of you posted yesterday in a diary tauting the virtue of Obama's 'uniqueness" as a reason to vote for him.


by bruh21 on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 11:47:31 AM EST
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Re: A Debate Edwards Has to Love (none / 0)

By the way, as I said in another before Obama is essentially Clinton 1992.


by bruh21 on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 11:49:26 AM EST
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Re: A Debate Edwards Has to Love (2.00 / 1)

Neither campaign was driving by positions. It was the "man from hope" that won him the race.


by bruh21 on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 11:55:29 AM EST
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Re: A Debate Edwards Has to Love (none / 0)

You are incredibly off target.  BC in 1992 was the chair of the DLC.  Obama has a lifetime of votes, and works, and statements, that demonstrate that he is a true progressive.  

95% ADA record in the Senate
96% lifetime voting record from the AFL-CIO

Community organizer;
Minority voter registration drive organizer;
Civil rights attorney;
Opposition to Iraq;
Ethics reform;

Where do you Obama critics come up with this stuff?  It is so obviously and demonstrably wrong.


by upper left on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 12:01:01 PM EST
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Re: A Debate Edwards Has to Love (none / 0)

voting records are irrelevant to how one campaigns- which is the discussion at hand. he campaigns as the man from hope. but now that you bring it up, you are being selective yet again about his record.


by bruh21 on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 12:06:27 PM EST
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Re: A Debate Edwards Has to Love (none / 0)

You make an assertion without any supporting evidence.  How have I distorted his record? I believe you and the Sirota crowd are the ones distorting his record.

Clever rhetorical construction on your part regarding "hope,"  but you are not addressing the substance of my argument.  Obama's record and campaign style are far different than BC.


by upper left on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 12:18:55 PM EST
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Re: A Debate Edwards Has to Love (none / 0)

voting record isn't important, but poll fed campaign positions are?

that summarizes the vapidity of the Edwards campaign right there. don't judge him on his substantive record, judge him as a campaigner!

(p.s: only one problem, if he's such a great campaigner, why is he behind everywhere?)


by CalDem on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 04:30:33 PM EST
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Re: A Debate Edwards Has to Love (none / 0)

actually thats not what i said but dont that let stop you from making shit up. as i said the difference along this thread is the need of the obama supporters to make shit up and work off denial.


by bruh21 on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 04:32:09 PM EST
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Re: A Debate Edwards Has to Love (none / 0)

One could also mention his slippery record on PACs and lobbyists.  But, more telling is his timidity in this campaign and in the US Senate.  He's a good 'voter' I'll happily give him that, just not a leader or a fighter, which is why the Senate is perfect for him.


by MassEyesandEars on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 12:28:29 PM EST
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Re: A Debate Edwards Has to Love (none / 0)

one could definitely write inuendo as you do yes


by bruh21 on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 12:35:33 PM EST
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Re: A Debate Edwards Has to Love (none / 0)

obama wouldn't have rushed off the campaign trail to ensure the execution of a retarded man, like clinton did.


I really don't understand how that is an attack; lol. ~ by Jerome Armstrong
by jello on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 01:17:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Debate Edwards Has to Love (2.00 / 3)

I'm sure it was very depressing for the Edwards campaign to see the Des Moines Register argue that he's too aggressive when it comes to taking on the big corporations.  That's a reputation that's sure going to haunt him in a Democratic primary, yes it is.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 11:50:53 AM EST

Re: A Debate Edwards Has to Love (2.00 / 3)

Yeah. DMR: "Edwards Too Awesome to Endorse."


by david mizner on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 11:54:35 AM EST
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Re: A Debate Edwards Has to Love (2.00 / 1)

I think its pretty depressing that so many democrats accept the idea that we need to cozy up even more to corporations if we hope for any change. Thats precisely the logic that led the party so far into the wilderness in the 90s and early 2000s.

I think Edwards is right that if the party gives up on the aspirations of so many working Americans that they might have a fair chance to get ahead, the Republicans will be able to continue to characterise the party as one of cultural elitists who disdain ordinary people.


by desmoulins on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 12:25:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Mischaracterizing Obama as usual.... (2.00 / 1)

A better summary of Obama:

"The system sucks, I will work to build the public's understanding of why, and work to build a popular movement that will overcome the forces that obstruct our ability to solve problems with the system."

I firmly believe that the left's anger at Obama's style and rhetoric is misplaced.  I, like Obama, was a community organizer in the 1980s.  I can see what he is doing.  He is building a constituency and a movement for change.  

He is not a sell-out or an appeaser.  He is a brilliant political strategist who understands that a frontal assualt on the bastions of corporate power has a low probability of success.

He is a teacher and an organizer. We need both.  We need a teacher to educate the public about the problems we face.  We need an organizer who can reach over the heads of the special interests and the Congressional Repubs who will try to obstruct change.

I hope that we can have a thoughtful discussion because I think the left's take on Obama is fundamentally flawed.


by upper left on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 11:53:27 AM EST

Re: Mischaracterizing Obama as usual.... (2.00 / 2)

I think David Brooks has a pretty good take on Obama this morning. He said, I paraphrase, that he pursues liberal ends through incremental and even conservative means.


by david mizner on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 11:56:17 AM EST
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Re: Mischaracterizing Obama as usual.... (none / 0)

The fact that Obama gets props from a moderate conservative like Brooks can be taken as evidence that he isn't very progressive......

..... or, it can be taken as evidence about how subversive and successful his approach can be.  Any liberal Democrat who can earn some respect and some cooperation from the Brooks wing of the Repubs is well placed to build successful coalitions that can actually push progressive reforms through Congress.

Dismissing Obama and my argument with a single sentence?  I was hoping for a better discussion.


by upper left on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 12:08:07 PM EST
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Re: Mischaracterizing Obama as usual.... (2.00 / 1)

I'm curious why Senator Obama's mentor in the Senate and firm believer in rising "above partisan politics," Joe Lieberman, just came out and endorsed McCain.  Is that an example of where Senator Obama's bipartisan approach will take us?


John McCain doesn't think kids need health insurance
by katerina on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 12:44:25 PM EST
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Re: Mischaracterizing Obama as usual.... (none / 0)

Does anyone really need to ask why Lieberman, who the Clinton's actually campaigned for, is now betraying his party and friends?

Probably for the same reason Nader, who is supposedly some wild-eyed liberal but in fact loves money and is a multi-millionaire from his supposed poverty works, betrayed liberalism, the poor and working people by giving us Bush.  


by Javier Doval on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 01:01:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Mischaracterizing Obama as usual.... (none / 0)

To quote BC, "this dog won't hunt,"  This tired, lame-*ss accusation means nothing.  We are supposed to weigh Obama's low-key, temporary friendship with Lieberman against everything else he has done in his adult life?  

Taking isolated facts out of context and using them to criticize Obama, no wonder you defend Jerome.  You are using his favorite technique.


by upper left on Wed Dec 19, 2007 at 10:48:11 AM EST
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Re: Mischaracterizing Obama as usual.... (2.00 / 1)

Yes his views on SS and healthcare certainly show he's worried what over 75 percent of the American public wants. Try again.


by bruh21 on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 11:57:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Mischaracterizing Obama as usual.... (2.00 / 1)

Raising payroll taxes on the top 4% of wage earners in order to increase the long-term health of the SS system is supposed to be evedence that he is a sell-out?  I don't buy your argument.

On health care, I don't care about the details of anyone's policy proposal.  The proposals are almost irrelevant to what will come out of the other end of the sausage factory on Capital Hill.  I care about the candidate's ability to get the politics right and build a successful coalition that can overcome the powerful array of interests who will try to subvert any change.

I have been working on health policy issues for over twenty years.  The policy is easy, it is the politics that is so difficult.  Having an organizer as President and someone who can talk to the other side will be a critical advantage.


by upper left on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 12:14:47 PM EST
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Re: Mischaracterizing Obama as usual.... (2.00 / 1)

I was responding to your claim here, but apparently that's a moving target. Let me know when you settle on one response to David's post.


by bruh21 on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 12:26:10 PM EST
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Re: Mischaracterizing Obama as usual.... (none / 0)

Just as an FYI, raising the payroll tax cap will do nothing to increase the long-term health of Social Security unless and until the overall budget deficit is reined in.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 02:57:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Debate Edwards Has to Love (none / 0)

I think Dems in general see HRC as tough against the right. Thats the problem with -
"Fight like hell to destroy it"

vote blue in 2008
by sepulvedaj3 on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 11:58:37 AM EST

Re: A Debate Edwards Has to Love (none / 0)

There's truth to that. If Dems see the relevant battle as one against the right, Clinton does well. If people see it as a fight against corporate power, E and O fare better.


by david mizner on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 12:00:32 PM EST
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Re: A Debate Edwards Has to Love (none / 0)

i love the line about how Edwards support 'is by most accounts increasing' -- with the only citation there being to a diary on Daily Kos. now that's some hard empirical proof! lol...more like proof of the dreamland in which Edwards supporters live.

if you go the realclear politics summary of polls you see that Edwards is currently averaging 23% in Iowa. Go back to the summer and you see polls that regularly had him in the 29-34% range. so...by all empirical evidence he has declined. last summer Obama was regularly polling in the mid-teens in Iowa and Clinton in the low 20s -- they're each now in the high 20s, close to 30%

so try to touch base with reality before you lie so blatantly in a diary again. figures that a John Edwards supporter would lie, since they support a candidate who has never held onto a political position for longer than was politically convenient.


by CalDem on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 12:06:43 PM EST

Re: A Debate Edwards Has to Love (none / 0)

Well, his poll numbers have edged up in recent weeks. He stopped going down when he starting advertising on TV. And the internets are buzzing with account of his increasing traction. We'll see if it shows up in the next polling, which should be out today.

Oh, and what's the prob? Anger? Self-hatred? Take a breath.


by david mizner on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 12:12:15 PM EST
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Re: A Debate Edwards Has to Love (none / 0)

self-hatred, actually. wink

and apologies if i was a bit over the top. though i stand by the substantive points: Edwards is a player in Iowa, but not a real threat.


by CalDem on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 12:41:57 PM EST
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Re: A Debate Edwards Has to Love (none / 0)

Hey, no problem. As for your substantive point, are you telling me that Edwards doesn't stand a chance to win in New Hampshire if he wins Iowa? And that he doesn't stand a chance to win the whole thing if he wins the first two?

He has good orgs in NH, Nevada, and SC (Where he's from.) And with victories come a free media furor that would propel him thru Super Tues. Also huge union support in California. etc etc etc. Longshot but quite plausible.


by david mizner on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 12:52:05 PM EST
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Re: A Debate Edwards Has to Love (none / 0)

well, it's hard to disagree with it as a longshot -- never say never and all that, but:

-i think Edwards is a long-shot to win Iowa. I don't see any movement in the polls in his direction unless you use the one Newsweek poll that had him at 18% as a baseline. But that seems an outlier, otherwise he's been consistently in the low to mid-20s, and no real shift. it's true he may have some 2nd choice push and maybe also some extra delegates due to having a presence in all counties, but in all the polls I see there are 3 ways to cut the pie showing hidden support (Clinton's support is firmer, etc etc...), so...let's just say I see no proof of that. add in that he'll be outspent and that both Obama and Clinton will be bringing in surrogates etc, he didn't get the DMR endorsement -- just hard to see where any momentum will come from.

-but let's say the Iowa longshot works out -- certainly conceivable. the track record of winners in Iowa also winning in New Hampshire is overrated -- it worked for Kerry last time, but previously it was only heavy favorites (incumbents or quasi-incumbents like gore and was basically uncontested) who have won both. In contested nominations, winning Iowa hasn't led to victory in New Hampshire. So, sure, there'll be a bit of momentum, but Edwards is 16% down to Clinton in NY and 13% down on Obama -- the idea that an Iowa win will catapult him past them is wishful thinking, to say the least.

-now let's say one longshot and super longshot work out for Edwards...then what? He'd still be facing candidates with huge leads in polls, better nation-wide organization, and a lot lot more money. The press will turn a nasty eye on him -- he hasn't been in the center of the media eye and, while as a supporter you may not see it, but as a guy who did vote for him in 2004 Edwards has a lot of vulnerabilities.

so, bottom line...it's really hard for me to imagine any conceivable way in which Edwards can win. Never say never...but to my mind his campaign is the personal conceit of a very rich man and the focus of former Naderites who are looking for a horse to back. Edwards is well known, has been campaigning the longest, and his money disadvantage has yet to really kick in, and yet he simply hasn't moved in the polls: to think he has a shot is dreaming....


by CalDem on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 01:44:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Debate Edwards Has to Love (2.00 / 1)

response to your inch deep mile wide analysis

a) obama and clinton focus tells us there is something to david's point

b) 2nd choice in IA matters

c) Edwards has been ticking up in early states

d) they out spent him and he's still in it.

none of this is dkos- just facts  you ignore.


by bruh21 on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 12:13:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Debate Edwards Has to Love (none / 0)

Yup. Here's the typical take, which probably has some truth, even though it's from NBC:

The big development yesterday was Obama's direct -- yet gentle (as the New York Times put it) -- hit on Edwards on his lack of taking on special interests when he served in the Senate. On TODAY, Edwards responded by citing his work to pass the Patients' Bill or Rights. "I like Barack. Just on this case, he's dead wrong." It seems like someone's moving in the polls, huh? Does Obama risk hurting his own favorable ratings by hitting the guy whom Iowans view with enormous affection? In this odd game of three-dimensional caucus chess, is this about Obama worrying that 1) Edwards is doing well in second-choice polling, or 2) doing well in some of the more rural parts of the state -- places where Obama thinks he could do well if it weren't for Edwards.

http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2 007/12/18/523106.aspx


by david mizner on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 12:17:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Debate Edwards Has to Love (none / 0)

I think it was Yglesias or Klein(Ezra) who diagnosed the problem with Edwards' argument--fight HOW, exactly?  What's the weakpoint to attack in order to succeed?  More likely if he goes in and declares, "the whole system is my enemy", that system will be remarkably cohesive and effective in destroying him.  
The other thing is, where is the concrete evidence that Edwards is getting stronger, can win past Iowa, etc.?  I don't even see clear and convincing evidence that he WILL win Iowa, just that it's still possible that he MIGHT.  

What happens if he comes in third in Iowa?  Do his supporters turn on a dime and figure out who they'll now back, or do they back him beyond a point where can reasonably be expected to win the nomination?


by megaplayboy on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 12:14:42 PM EST

Re: A Debate Edwards Has to Love (2.00 / 1)

The first point is to realize that you must start from the attitude that this situation is not tableau rasa. This means that when Obama talks of compromise or Clinton of working in the system-t hese have been tried. The second is to realize that when you say how- that's not the first question- the first question is do you have the will to do what ever it takes? That's the first question. Edwards is imperfect- but at least he gets teh first question unlike our other choicws.


by bruh21 on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 12:23:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Debate Edwards Has to Love (none / 0)

What happens if Clinton finishes third?


by desmoulins on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 12:26:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

more interesting is (none / 0)

What happens if Obama finishes third?


Waiting for the Glorious Train Wreck.
by Rooktoven on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 01:00:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Debate Edwards Has to Love (none / 0)

here's the Klein entry:

http://blog.prospect.org/mt-tb.cgi?__mod e=view&entry_id=103239


by megaplayboy on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 12:17:10 PM EST

Re: A Debate Edwards Has to Love (2.00 / 1)

An entry Klein reconsidered after several commenters pointed out that the way Edwards would succeed is through simple politics--through getting a mandate.

And of course he might not win Iowa. But if he does, he stands a good chance of going the distance.


by david mizner on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 12:19:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Debate Edwards Has to Love (none / 0)

The glaring logical problem with this argument is that it equates "fighting corporate power" with "shutting corporations out".  That's not only a fallacious comparison (akin to arguing that, say, talking with Iran is equal to surrender), it's a supremely naive strategy for governance.  Corporate power is not limited to political contributions.  Corporate interest is not limited to merely wanting a seat at the table.  No matter what Edwards says, the health care industry will have a voice in any major health care reform.  They have too big a financial interest in such reform, and too much power (not only inside Washington, but outside of it as well) to simply surrender once a door is shut in their face.  You either give them an official channel to air grievances, and that means showing a willingness to listen but an unwillingness to compromise on principles, or they will find a channel of their own by directly lobbying the American people... and, if history is any indication, they are likely to be successful (at least more successful than a newly elected president) simply because they have inertia on their side.

We could accept that challenge, sure.  You can conduct fights in the media, but Obama knows from experience that you win fights at the negotiating table.  Think he'd have ever managed his reforms of Illinois' criminal justice system by negotiating only with those legislators who agreed with him, and leaving the police unions to fend for themselves?  No way.  That's just not how democracy works.  

I'd rather win the legislative fights against corporate interests than win the rhetorical fights about them.  But then again, I'm not running for president.


by Ryan Anderson on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 12:27:51 PM EST

Re: A Debate Edwards Has to Love (none / 0)

This doesn't make any sense. If you give corporations a venue for airing grievances, then they're not going to lobby the American people? Of course they are.

Why would you give institutions that are opposed to reform a chance to help shape reform? Do you give the NRA a seat at the table so that it can help shape gun control measures? Do you give Right to Life a seat at the table so that it can help shape pro-choice measures?


by david mizner on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 12:38:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Debate Edwards Has to Love (none / 0)

Yes, shockingly, in a pluralistic democracy you can listen to people even if they don't agree with you.  In fact, that's the only way to get those people to listen to you in return.  

By giving someone a voice in the process (and you don't have to compromise on principles in order to compromise), you give them a stake in the outcome.  That internalizes the battle and mitigates its public affect (again, see Obama's successful negotiations with the police unions, negotiations which resulted in a progressive bill that his initial opponents were actually able to rally behind).  Since neither Edwards nor Obama is advocating a single payer system, health care reform needn't be an uncompromising fight to the death with the current powers that be.  If we try to make it one anyway, we will almost certainly lose... again.  And face another twenty years without any real progress being made.


by Ryan Anderson on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 12:49:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Debate Edwards Has to Love (2.00 / 1)

the problem with your version of pluralism is that DC only listens to the one's with power. Until you get that corp lobbists are writing legislation wholesale this conversation is a waste of time. the question isn't should government represent everyone - its why arent they now in the present system?


by bruh21 on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 01:06:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Debate Edwards Has to Love (none / 0)

I agree with you entirely.  In fact, that's why I support Obama in the first place, because he has demonstrated both the courage to fight lobbyists and the skill to win.  


by Ryan Anderson on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 01:15:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Corporations ARE NOT people (none / 0)

Just because the Reagan era gave us the notion that corporations should have the same rights as citizens, doesn't mean that corporations really are included in the Bill of Rights.

Corporations don't get freedom of speech.  Americans do, and Americans are being screwed by corporations left and right.


John McCain doesn't think kids need health insurance
by katerina on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 02:41:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Corporations ARE NOT people (none / 0)

" Americans do, and Americans are being screwed by corporations left and right."

Agreed.  Hence why I think it's important to have an effective strategy to push back.


by Ryan Anderson on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 10:00:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Debate Edwards Has to Love (1.00 / 1)

i wish all these bloggers who think they're better than obama would put their ass on the line and run for office.


I really don't understand how that is an attack; lol. ~ by Jerome Armstrong
by jello on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 12:41:26 PM EST

Re: A Debate Edwards Has to Love (2.00 / 2)

stupid comment of the day award


by bruh21 on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 12:45:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Debate Edwards Has to Love (none / 0)

bruh21, i bow down before your genius.


I really don't understand how that is an attack; lol. ~ by Jerome Armstrong
by jello on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 01:13:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Debate Edwards Has to Love (none / 0)

yes because it requires intelligence beyond a third grader to call you on arguing essentially no one can question a candidate unless they themselves are running for office. we are in a democracy, not a celeb-ocracy.


by bruh21 on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 01:23:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Debate Edwards Has to Love (none / 0)

to call you on arguing essentially no one can question a candidate

i didn't argue no such thing.


I really don't understand how that is an attack; lol. ~ by Jerome Armstrong
by jello on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 01:25:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Debate Edwards Has to Love (2.00 / 0)

That's right. Unless you are running for office, you can't criticize Barack Obama.

Where do you get crap like that?


Join us at Show Me Progress!
by clarkent on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 01:13:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Debate Edwards Has to Love (none / 0)

it's their holier-than-thou attitude that grates. seeing them humbled by the realities of campaigning would be interesting to see.


I really don't understand how that is an attack; lol. ~ by Jerome Armstrong
by jello on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 01:20:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Debate Edwards Has to Love (none / 0)

Armstrong has worked on campaigns before.


Join us at Show Me Progress!
by clarkent on Sun Dec 30, 2007 at 02:22:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Debate Edwards Has to Love (none / 0)

You see what is happening now, and few here get it because the MSM doesn't get it, won't report it; still report politics as sport.

Most campaigners work on the appearance in politics. Edwards works on the reality part of the equation, appearance vs. reality. Why is John Edwards so happy now? They write that he has abandoned the "angry" theme - which is more MSM soap opera invention. He is happy because his strategy is working. He's got that winning feeling that he had going into trial after years of preparation on a case.

I've seen an intelligent campaign from the beginning. It doesn't whipsaw, it moves according to a plan relentlessly. The reported story themes are always wrong. Only by looking back after a win, will pundits be able to analyze the strategy of this intelligent campaign and the intelligence of the campaigners, John, Elizabeth, and David. This campaign is there to be seen if you are looking at it as trial preparation, with a beginning, middle and end, and with an understanding that at its heart is a political philosophy and purpose that is at one with the candidate's life experience.

 


by mrobinsong on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 12:52:24 PM EST

Re: A Debate Edwards Has to Love (none / 0)

Obama/Edwards in 08!


better luck next universe
by thenew on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 01:04:58 PM EST

This is what winning looks like (2.00 / 1)

http://www.alternet.org/story/70781/
Compare how Edwards and Clinton do in head-to-head match-ups:

Edwards 54% (+10)
McCain 44%

Clinton 48% (-2)
McCain 50%

Edwards 53%(+9)
Giuliani 44%

Clinton 51%(+6)
Giuliani 45%

Edwards 59%(+22)
Romney 37%

Clinton 54%(+11)
Romney 43%

Edwards 60%(+25)
Huckabee 35%

Clinton 54%(+10)
Huckabee 44%

Here is authentic journalism, from Paul Krugman of the NY Times who examines Sen. Obama's political philosophy. It's about time for the MSM to analyze political philosophy of candidates.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/17/opinio n/17krugman.html


by mrobinsong on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 01:06:10 PM EST

Re: A Debate Edwards Has to Love (none / 0)

re the john nichols quote "Edwards was willing to stand up on a number of anti-corporate issues.."

funny, it was john nichols (in 2003) who reported on edwards voting against the interests of small family farmers in favor of big agra conglomerates.

The late Senator Paul Wellstone of Minnesota, Senator Byron Dorgan of North Dakota and Senator Tim Johnson of South Dakota battled in the last Congress for a national ban on livestock ownership by meatpacking companies. If enacted, it would have prevented the development of monopolies that kill competition and drive small farms out of business. Their initiative failed, with key Democrats, like North Carolina Senator John Edwards, opposing it. As he seeks the presidency, Edwards is now trying to position himself as a champion of rural America, but he has taken hits for being on the wrong side of what Congressional Progressive Caucus co-chair Dennis Kucinich says should be "a defining issue in this campaign."

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20031103/ni chols2

another vote of edwards that pissed me off was when he voted to shield big pharma from liability lawsuits. how do you go from suing corporations to protecting them from lawsuits? how is that "anti-corporate."


I really don't understand how that is an attack; lol. ~ by Jerome Armstrong
by jello on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 01:10:27 PM EST

Re: A Debate Edwards Has to Love (none / 0)

Clinton and Obama had planned to out-spend and out-celebrity him into oblivion. The best paid plans.

Out spend maybe, but Edwards was a vice- Presidential candidate and a pretty good one to. A lot of people(me included) still have him at the top of their list as "the candidate". I just wish that the cut-throat lawyer had shown up for his debate with Darth Cheney and not the mister nice guy.


by RDean on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 01:16:47 PM EST

Re: A Debate Edwards Has to Love (1.00 / 0)

Clinton sans botox.

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,229 46872-2,00.html


by Javier Doval on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 01:17:10 PM EST

Re: A Debate Edwards Has to Love (none / 0)

i blame her husband for prematurely aging her.


I really don't understand how that is an attack; lol. ~ by Jerome Armstrong
by jello on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 01:33:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Debate Edwards Has to Love (none / 0)

I hope that we can have a thoughtful discussion because I think the left's take on Obama is fundamentally flawed.

I'm on the left and I like Obama. I just happen to think Edwards is better suited at the moment. Hillary is really the only candidate I'd have to grit my teeth to support. She's to far right and to corporate.


by RDean on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 01:25:51 PM EST

Re: A Debate Edwards Has to Love (none / 0)

I think Obama has a legitimate criticism: If Edwards wins on fighting the entrenched power, the entrenched power's only goal will be to break him and nothing will get done--because who will back Edwards? The people? Sure--but since when has entrenched power actually listened to the people?

It could devolve into a stalemate.

Now the above is not something I necessarily believe, but I think it's a question that voters should evaluate in their minds, and decide whether they think Edwards can over come or avoid this potential scenario, if yes vote for him, if no take a look at Obama or Clinton.


by MNPundit on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 02:13:52 PM EST

Re: A Debate Edwards Has to Love (none / 0)

better a stalemate than outright selling them the whole damn farm like we are now. again it depends on how you understand things. right now- what do we have to lose by fighting? and what have we gained through either having already used both obama and clinton's strategies int eh past?


by bruh21 on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 02:40:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Debate Edwards Has to Love (none / 0)

Guffaw!  Edwards is a big money lawyer who was in it for the bucks and the power.  I saw him up close in North Carolina.  He never was the voice of the oppressed.  He was the voice of the man who knew who had the deep pockets, and he was going to grab what he could!  I like Dodd.


by candideinnc on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 04:16:48 PM EST

Re: A Debate Edwards Has to Love (none / 0)

big money lawyers are those who rep big corporations, not plaitiffs lawyers representing people harmed by faulty products. what you mean by that is he was sucessfuly as prosecuting and winning his case. in that case guilty as charged, but i didn't know failure was the benchmark by which we should be wanting to endorse a candidate. like i keep saying, the extent to which you people are making shit to justify your choices is amazing.


by bruh21 on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 04:33:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Debate Edwards Has to Love (none / 0)

Round and round we go, Edwards, the fighter, Obama, the conciliator. It's a false dichotomy, nothing but rhetoric.

It's about the political skills to make stuff happen. If it was as easy as just spinning a good case against corporate America, don't you think this would've been done already?

Obama been on a lifelong mission to empower the people to take back the government from special interests. From community organizing to Senate ethics reform, its the same thing over and over. And he knows what it takes to win and he does win, even in the fact of Republican rule, as was the case during his entire stay in the Illinois state legislature and his first two years in the U.S. senate.

I like Edwards, I really do. I just don't see that he's got a plan to get us where he wants to go.


by dmc2 on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 04:46:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Debate Edwards Has to Love (none / 0)

again and again  historical analysis actually proves your type of comment wrong, but nothing trumps belief systems like yours so i wont bother


by bruh21 on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 05:36:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Debate Edwards Has to Love (none / 0)

What, long term experience proves that rhetoric creates more change than organizing strategies?

Cites?


by dmc2 on Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 07:33:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]


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